S16s - Utter rubbish

[COASTERDESIGNERPRO1]

The sec 21s Party Games, Reel King and Little Devils Slottos and Vivid £500 at my local Gala Club are always being played.

[spa]

Ahh another S16 thread, complete with all the "They're definitely not random" theories that are based on nothing but pure speculation and, to be frank, sheer ignorance.

If you don't understand maths, don't comment - you ain't fit to. Certainly don't put forward your opinions as facts because, unless you are involved in the design and/or programming of these machines, they are meaningless without any concrete information on how the software works.

And by that post you don't play S16 very often do you?

Yes, you are right. They are random but many will agree that they do have spells of paying out loads and others not a dime.

When they 1st came out I had a go on the Monopoly one. £140 in and still no feature so I left it and told myself never again.

6 months down the line I was having a blinding day on the £25 awps and decided to have another shot at it. £40 limit straight in, 1 hour later a bank of £250 made up from featuers, 5 of a kinds, £20 fruit wins etc. All in the space of a hour. I left it, someone put £20 and got the streak for £150. I was gutted to say the least but I did win £210 more than I would have.

The only reason I stayed on it was that i'd seen the exact same thing happen to some old lady and she stayed on it and got the £500 jackpot.

[poundropper]

Yes,a lot of them do seem to streak.
I scored the £500 from a repeating board just after a one shot £100 on random monopoly.
Barcrests seem good,I've seen a Cashino go to £900 from a £500 then other wins.
Or you may get the jackpot to see them go dead.If nothing much happens £10-20 after the jacky walk away.

[Fruiter]

I used to always play high roller, and i have taken it for around 8 JP's in total, and i'd say 6 of them have been given in this way:

wheel for £40/50
+
£2/4 win gambled to £25/40
+
£2/4 win gambled to £40/100
+
It's then given another £2 win and gone all the way to £500!

Now for a random machine getting this sequance 6 out of 8 times is like winning the lottery 3 weeks on the run!

The other 2 times i've had JP it's just rolled royal flush straight in!

I do beleive they have a certain amount of random(ness?) to them but surely they know what they have to pay out in order to meet the percentage rate

[TheMission]

And by that post you don't play S16 very often do you?

More often than you I should think SteveV2 - usually the ones that are constantly running on auto next to my desk - the ones I program. What I am able to do is run hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of play through them for nothing, and prove that said machines work exactly as I coded them to work - and that means they're random.

There are so many threads on this topic on various forums, with some people insistent that their theories on how S16s work is correct, without the slightest factual knowledge. Those threads are then visited by someone who is in a position to know some facts (like now), but it's the same people time and again who just WON'T have it.

It hasn't happened here yet I admit, but we could try it...

I'll say it again: they are random. If anyone cares to tell me I'm wrong I'll gladly debate it.

[Mattb]

There was an independent investigation into FOBT Roulette that was carried out a while ago. This is run from a similar principle (RNG). The audit wasn't 100% satisfied that everything was above board, and i for one believe them!

Can't say i think everything with S16s is hunky dory either. I don't really care either - as i don't play them. Why play something where you have no control of the outcome? At least with my AWP knowledge i stand a chance of making something.

Matt

[TheMission]

Why play something where you have no control of the outcome? At least with my AWP knowledge i stand a chance of making something.

Matt

You'd have to ask the hundreds of thousands of people who play the National Lotteries, Las Vegas slots, S16s or roulette across the globe that Matt. Compare that number with the comparatively piss poor player base of UK/European AWPs and it's clear who's in the minority.

I haven't an opinion either way - I just know that manus can only survive by designing and supplying what operators are prepared to buy - and operators only want to buy what gets played and takes money. There are many game designers who via their supposed expertise and knowledge (and the fact that they are experienced players too) think that they have hit the 'Holy Grail' with their latest creation, only to see it die on it's arse 'cause everyone else thinks it's crap.

The cashbox will always be the King, whatever the game - that's the way it is.

[Fruiter]

Why play something where you have no control of the outcome? At least with my AWP knowledge i stand a chance of making something.

Matt

You'd have to ask the hundreds of thousands of people who play the National Lotteries, Las Vegas slots, S16s or roulette across the globe that Matt. Compare that number with the comparatively piss poor player base of UK/European AWPs and it's clear who's in the minority.

I haven't an opinion either way - I just know that manus can only survive by designing and supplying what operators are prepared to buy - and operators only want to buy what gets played and takes money. There are many game designers who via their supposed expertise and knowledge (and the fact that they are experienced players too) think that they have hit the 'Holy Grail' with their latest creation, only to see it die on it's arse 'cause everyone else thinks it's crap.

The cashbox will always be the King, whatever the game - that's the way it is.

I do agree that they are random but i just can't get my head round how something random can also be on a percentage?

Could you explain it?

[Mattb]

The percentage can be controlled fmw - These Slotto's all have mini games built into them don't they. If the machine has gone ages without paying out anything, it can just pay more in the feature game to meet the percentage.

Ones that have no games built into them will win over a great number of plays. It's like how a roulette table will always make money - there are always more losing combinations than winning ones. The house ALWAYS has the edge.

Matt

[COASTERDESIGNERPRO1]

There is one thing i would really like to know-

The Barcrest games machines have the ability to play on different stakes; 50p, £1 or £2 for 20 pay lines.

Now, if for instance you get 3 roulette wheels on cashino on a 50p stake and it awards you £6, if you played this game on £1 would it have still given you the 3 roulette wheels, if so would it have still paid £6?

So my problem is do the stakes operate as different programs? Ie is there a 50p program, a £1 program and a £2 program. Or if you get 3 disks at 50p, if you played £1 or £2 would it have still given you 3 disks or would it have given you 4 or 5 disks?

Sometimes i think to myself when i am playing Rainbow Riches and i get 3 roads to riches on 50p, i think 'oh if only i played £2 on that go i would have got more'.

[Dunhamzzz]

mate had a double off random monopoly last nite from £20, one spin after the other. 980 up. good stuff

[Istenem]

[quote="COASTERDESIGNERPRO1"]There is one thing i would really like to know-

The Barcrest games machines have the ability to play on different stakes]

i'd like to know this too.

[spa]

And by that post you don't play S16 very often do you?

More often than you I should think SteveV2 - usually the ones that are constantly running on auto next to my desk - the ones I program. What I am able to do is run hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of play through them for nothing, and prove that said machines work exactly as I coded them to work - and that means they're random.

There are so many threads on this topic on various forums, with some people insistent that their theories on how S16s work is correct, without the slightest factual knowledge. Those threads are then visited by someone who is in a position to know some facts (like now), but it's the same people time and again who just WON'T have it.

It hasn't happened here yet I admit, but we could try it...

I'll say it again: they are random. If anyone cares to tell me I'm wrong I'll gladly debate it.

That's fair enough.

How many numbers do your machines have in the RNGs out of interest?

Which company do you progam for may I ask?

[Cash is King]

The Mission I am not going to disagree with you but no computer based system is truely random.

I.E. Tell somebody to pick any number no matter what. Now that person can choose any number from 0 - infinity
A computer based system like a Sec16 still has to work within the parameters of the RNG which itself has been coded by a human to work within the code. Now im no programer but im sure there is no code to calculate infinity.

However when people talk about the RNG and ask how many values it has to choose from the number is probably so high that it will pretty much be random. "The Mission" could probably give you a more acurate number but think of it as an odd your chances of getting the £500 are probably 1,000,000 - 1 and your chances of getting £0 is 2-1

So there is nothing to stop it giving you nothing for xxx but you could as some people have said see 2/3 £500's come spin after spin

[TheMission]

The percentage can be controlled fmw - These Slotto's all have mini games built into them don't they. If the machine has gone ages without paying out anything, it can just pay more in the feature game to meet the percentage.

Ones that have no games built into them will win over a great number of plays. It's like how a roulette table will always make money - there are always more losing combinations than winning ones. The house ALWAYS has the edge.

Matt

You see, this is exactly the point I am trying to make. Matt, your theory makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The whole point of random games is that they don't give a toss about what has happened previously, so the fact that it's "gone ages without paying anything" is meaningless - this is what AWPs do. That's the difference.

Having a game with more losing combinations than winning ones is only half the story. Say it costs me a quid to throw a dice and to win I have to throw a six. I've got five losing combinations and only one of a win. Suppose when I do win I get 200 quid. Would you play it? I would! It's the mathematical combination of probability versus stake/prize ratio that's the key.

Any random game has an overall percentage by the fact that this percentage will be met over an infinite number of games. Obviously infinite ain't possible, but to use my results, a £2 a spin game will be bang on over £150k worth or so of play.

If you played a roulette wheel with no zeros 'forever', you'd end up with exactly what you started with. If you go to casinos, check the odds - they're all based on a 1 in 36 chance. Playing lines, groups of 4 etc makes no difference other than to alter the win frequency vs payout ratio. This is akin to the different 'profile' settings on a S16. But a roulette wheel doesn't have 36 numbers - it has either 37 or 38. There's the edge. It's a small edge, but it's there, and whilst someone may be a jammy git and land a big win in a couple of spins, the sheer number of plays over time ensures the laws of maths will be met.

Whilst they're all slightly different, changing any 'setting' like stake, number of lines etc could select a different probability vs win table, so the chances of any particular outcome can be totally different. The key is that what has happened before is NOT RELEVANT i.e. no streaks.

And yes every computer 'random' algorithm is pseudo-random and follows a sequence. There are many variations, but a good one uses 2^32 = 4,294,967,296 outcomes, which on my hardware is free-running but stops it's selections when SPIN is pressed. Your timing would have to be bloody good though, as it picks numbers at over 60MHz! It works - the tests prove it.