I once got into an argument about whether FOBT machines in bookies are fixed. And I argued that just because you lose 15 times in a row on black, or you see the number 13 appear x times in a row, doesn't make a machine fixed.
(http://fruitchat.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=974)
However, at the same time, receiving the crappy prize on DOND over and over again kinda makes me believe that although it likes to give the appearance of being random, it is anything but. When was the last time you heard of a quiz machine ignoring its percentage and handing out random prizes? I'm not doubting your £20 prizes Foxy, but I could imagine that where you play, there is a helluva lot of money going through the game, and DOND appears to be the game of choice for dullards and the like.
So what does anyone else think? Take part in my rather skewed poll!
Deal or no deal - Fixed or not fixed?
-
Cardinal Sin
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4166
- Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:33 pm
-
Matt Vinyl
- Senior Member
- Posts: 7198
- Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 6:56 pm
- Location: Lost in the outback, Bryan
I'd say it 'has' to be fixed, else there's really no control on the payout - unless the path to the prize game is what decides on wether you are playing a 'winning game' or not.
- If there's no 'fixed' 'block' preventing you getting to the end game, I'd say that the end game is fixed.
- If there is a 'fixed' 'block' preventing you getting to the end game, it is possible that the end game is not fixed. In other words, the machine letting you get to the end game means that it has 'decided' that it can afford to pay anything from dick-all up to the biggun.
I'd say this is just me applying my (greater) knowledge of AWP's to the SWP idea, but in theory, it's plausible...
Thoughts?
- If there's no 'fixed' 'block' preventing you getting to the end game, I'd say that the end game is fixed.
- If there is a 'fixed' 'block' preventing you getting to the end game, it is possible that the end game is not fixed. In other words, the machine letting you get to the end game means that it has 'decided' that it can afford to pay anything from dick-all up to the biggun.
I'd say this is just me applying my (greater) knowledge of AWP's to the SWP idea, but in theory, it's plausible...
Thoughts?
"And do you ever contradict yourself, Minister?" "Well, yes and no..."
-
Cardinal Sin
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4166
- Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:33 pm
Yes, I have thought that myself that it would only let you in the final game if it didn't mind you winning the big one. However, it does let you into the end game quite frequently, and even when it bumps the points requirement, it's still not impossible to get to the 2nd part.
If you work out the average prize from the end game, I think it is between £4 and £5 (slightly higher than what you'd normally win). However, all I can do is go by my own prizes from the end game ... I've only collected the deal about 2-3 times... I have won untold numbers of 10p's and 20p's... quite a few more other prizes under a £1... on the red side, I've won £10 once, £5 a couple of times, and probably a few other smaller prizes.
Either I'm really unlucky or the game isn't random!
p.s. another thought.. wouldn't they make a big song and dance about it if the final game really was random?
If you work out the average prize from the end game, I think it is between £4 and £5 (slightly higher than what you'd normally win). However, all I can do is go by my own prizes from the end game ... I've only collected the deal about 2-3 times... I have won untold numbers of 10p's and 20p's... quite a few more other prizes under a £1... on the red side, I've won £10 once, £5 a couple of times, and probably a few other smaller prizes.
Either I'm really unlucky or the game isn't random!
p.s. another thought.. wouldn't they make a big song and dance about it if the final game really was random?
-
Matt Vinyl
- Senior Member
- Posts: 7198
- Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 6:56 pm
- Location: Lost in the outback, Bryan
Agree with that in it's entirety - especially that last point. I'm sure that there'd be 'splash screens' and stickers etc announcing that it's truly random - it would certainly increase the appeal to 'less-than-regular' players...
I'm going to sit on the 'Fixed' side of the camp after careful consideration...
I'm going to sit on the 'Fixed' side of the camp after careful consideration...
"And do you ever contradict yourself, Minister?" "Well, yes and no..."
-
Cardinal Sin
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4166
- Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:33 pm
I think the machine is only going to pay whatever its miserable payout level is no matter what you do. Obviously it is going to loosen up and may appear "fair" when it has money to give away. The real test is getting to the money game when the the first part is a brick wall. And then see how much you get.
We could collate some statistics on here. If it is genuinely random the average prize you get for playing it through to the end (swapping the boxes at the end is irrelevant) should be approximately equal to the average prize apparently available at the beginning (if somebody just works that out exactly).
For the experiment everyone involved has to play the money game through to the end every time for say 10 consecutive money games irrespective of what offers are made. Then post the amounts won here.
We could collate some statistics on here. If it is genuinely random the average prize you get for playing it through to the end (swapping the boxes at the end is irrelevant) should be approximately equal to the average prize apparently available at the beginning (if somebody just works that out exactly).
For the experiment everyone involved has to play the money game through to the end every time for say 10 consecutive money games irrespective of what offers are made. Then post the amounts won here.
For me the end game is about as random as whether you are given the chance to go into the room where the murder took place in real Cluedo or playing the Hi vs Lo option on virtually any fruit machine, where say lower than a 8 should be a winner in 7/11 (64%) of cases but virtually never is - i.e. not random at all!
It cannot be random. No quiz machine is as the sophisticated software manipulates everything in its favour. If you require a high score to get through to the second section it is logical and my experience that the amount of money I get for getting to the end is considerably lower than if the score needed is 20,000.
Yeah i can't see it being random, as if it'd have to be prepared to pay out £20 every go, then the points total would have to always be high, making it be played less by casual punters that can't be arsed to waste 50p trying get to 90,000 points.
Maybe if they just made a final game at £1 a go with cash prizes like 1p 2p 5p 10p 15p 20p etc you could make a random one, but i doubt you'd get enough turnover, also that would probably no longer be a SWP.
Maybe a FOBT should consider doing something like that.
Maybe if they just made a final game at £1 a go with cash prizes like 1p 2p 5p 10p 15p 20p etc you could make a random one, but i doubt you'd get enough turnover, also that would probably no longer be a SWP.
Maybe a FOBT should consider doing something like that.
Jings,
It's me against the rest of the trivia world here and I'm steamin so let's try and explain nonetheless!
The control mechanism to my mind is all about the first part of the game.
You need to achieve a certain amount of points.It's quite easy for the machine to make this target outwith the scope of the normal/advanced trivia player if necsary. I assume everyone has been hit by spoiler a la episodes of on the buses or which event in the 70's (cue 3 non-events in the 70s ) happened first.
Additionally to the points it has the option to make every guess make you answer 4 q's.
In conclusion, the first part is rigged as you would expect.If it's up for paying the points are low and the amount of q's are low.If it wants to prevent payout then then the points total is high, the amount of q's is raised and the spoilers come to the fore.
And so to the contentious issue-you get to the end board.
I guess you all think this is predetermined and I guess I'm ploughing a lone furrow in thinking it may be not.There are 16 prizes.8 of them are £2 or less.(I'm playing the £1 a go game here).Statistically you're going to win double your stake i.e. like a £1 win on bullseye.
O.k. you may win more(and I honestly have more often than not)
but it would merely make the endscreen inacheivable til the money was made up.Additionally let's say you actually picked the jackpot the nature of the game is to tempt you into accepting a lesser amount with which you are happy.
In conclusion the entire control mechanism is in the first part and the second stage can afford to be random because the average win would about £2 and any big win would be compensated by a lack of possibility on getting on the end board.
I realise no-one agrees with me but having played these bloody things for so long I am totally sticking to my guns in terms of how I perceive the payout of this game.
Thanks for listening.
It's me against the rest of the trivia world here and I'm steamin so let's try and explain nonetheless!
The control mechanism to my mind is all about the first part of the game.
You need to achieve a certain amount of points.It's quite easy for the machine to make this target outwith the scope of the normal/advanced trivia player if necsary. I assume everyone has been hit by spoiler a la episodes of on the buses or which event in the 70's (cue 3 non-events in the 70s ) happened first.
Additionally to the points it has the option to make every guess make you answer 4 q's.
In conclusion, the first part is rigged as you would expect.If it's up for paying the points are low and the amount of q's are low.If it wants to prevent payout then then the points total is high, the amount of q's is raised and the spoilers come to the fore.
And so to the contentious issue-you get to the end board.
I guess you all think this is predetermined and I guess I'm ploughing a lone furrow in thinking it may be not.There are 16 prizes.8 of them are £2 or less.(I'm playing the £1 a go game here).Statistically you're going to win double your stake i.e. like a £1 win on bullseye.
O.k. you may win more(and I honestly have more often than not)
but it would merely make the endscreen inacheivable til the money was made up.Additionally let's say you actually picked the jackpot the nature of the game is to tempt you into accepting a lesser amount with which you are happy.
In conclusion the entire control mechanism is in the first part and the second stage can afford to be random because the average win would about £2 and any big win would be compensated by a lack of possibility on getting on the end board.
I realise no-one agrees with me but having played these bloody things for so long I am totally sticking to my guns in terms of how I perceive the payout of this game.
Thanks for listening.
-
Cardinal Sin
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4166
- Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:33 pm
I do hear what you're saying Foxy, and to an extent, I agree. Although there is a possibility that someone could win £20 from the end-game, chances are they won't. Therefore it can happily keep offering the end game time after time.
But WHY would they make it random, and then not really say anything about it? Pub owners don't want their quiz machines to be random, they want them to pay a steady income... in other words, £100 in .. .£30 out ... not £1 ... £20 , then it pays like a sluggish snail for the next month.
If you fancy meeting in Glasgow sometime for a DONDer® round, I'll be happy to demonstrate my unerring ability at choosing shoddy prizes!
But WHY would they make it random, and then not really say anything about it? Pub owners don't want their quiz machines to be random, they want them to pay a steady income... in other words, £100 in .. .£30 out ... not £1 ... £20 , then it pays like a sluggish snail for the next month.
Now surely if you truly thought that this game was random, then you'd have gone for the gamble?Foxy wrote:Played the £1 a go one yesterday and ended up with £5 and £40.This was my moment of glory in the making but I ended up totally bottling it and accepted the £14 on offer
If you fancy meeting in Glasgow sometime for a DONDer® round, I'll be happy to demonstrate my unerring ability at choosing shoddy prizes!
I didn't go for the gamble because i'd put about 8 quid in and I had about 2 quid left.
Oh aye, and I completely bottled it.
This incident kind of supports my payout control theory I would profess.
P.S. Offer accepted.
Will let alll of you know how the great DONDer goes.I hope I haven't contravened too many copyright laws there!
Oh aye, and I completely bottled it.
This incident kind of supports my payout control theory I would profess.
P.S. Offer accepted.
Will let alll of you know how the great DONDer goes.I hope I haven't contravened too many copyright laws there!