Is this illegal??????

porkman · Post by **porkman** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:30 pm

OK

I have been having this on going argument with a friend.

So ...

This is something I have wondered about for ages.

Lets say you had a 'key' of some kind (not to open the machine) but one that would increase your winnings. I think it's called a 'refill' key??????

Lets say if you put in this 'key' and turned it, you would automatically get into the <winning> money section on the machine. So every time you twist the key it means you will win at least the min amount. But could win anything from that up to the jackpot, or if you do a high low and lose, nothing. But with out fail, a twist of the key, gets you up there.

If you were caught using this key, would that be a crime?

Could the kebab shop, arcade, casino - call the police and have you arrested?

I had this conversation with a friend who swears blind it's not against the law. I can't see how it isn't.

As surely you are going into the place with equipment to unfairly take money out of the machine.

In affect you are entering (premeditated) armed with 'tools of the trade'

I think it is against the law. I think it's like going armed for burglary. And twisiting the true odds though manipulation has to be against the law?????

I could be wrong.

If anyone has a link to any such case it would be most interesting.

Or anyone know where the law is on this?

I realsie you will get thrown out, but will they/can they call the police/charge you?????

Thanks for any help.

porkman · Post by **porkman** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:42 pm

I'm pretty sure it's called a refill key.

And it only works like this in very few machines.

But my question of whether it's against the law still stands?

gambogaz1 · Post by **gambogaz1** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:49 pm

Your basically trying to get at the old extreme keying method. The only law is the " going equipped to gain" however it's very hard to prove so any case usually gets dropped.

AMK · Post by **AMK** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:05 pm

Seeing as we are being technical here... You could effectively get done for theft of information... Eg: the machine is £xx off from full.

Maybe you could say you slipped and your refill key fell out and turned in the machine? Lol

Or say you have applied in writing under the freedom of information act? Haha

porkman · Post by **porkman** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:12 pm

gambogaz1 wrote:Your basically trying to get at the old extreme keying method. The only law is the " going equipped to gain" however it's very hard to prove so any case usually gets dropped.

Yes that's exactly it.

And it really is a friend, not me honest. It really is.

I swear blind it is against the law.

Here's the rub, he has just joined the police.

I'm saying if he gets caught he could lose his job.

He says it's 100% legal and fine.

I realise that they won't call the police, he will just get asked to leave, BUT I am also pretty sure it is NOT 100% legal and fine.

But he says it is.

I think he is wrong, but safe as they won't even bother with the courts.

Also as it's older machines the sorts of venues they are in means the people there are less aware of what is ok, and what isn't.

Thanks so far.

So no one has ever successfully been taken to court?

MrRed · Post by **MrRed** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:22 pm

Its a bit of a strange one imo

My mate actually got arrested for having one

Basically he was doing an extreme and got caught by the staff who locked him in and phoned the police

When they came they searched him then arrested him on suspicion of theft or whatever
He had £300 in coins and £400 in notes taken off him and the key, and was questioned and released a short while later, although he had to wait 6 weeks to get his money back

The pub had him on CCTV using it as well but he was never charged
for anything

So the police can and will arrest and make your life difficult but i have never heard of anyone getting prosecuted for it
I dont use one btw

porkman · Post by **porkman** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:28 pm

Ok.

My friend, as far as I know, only occassionally uses it. And only 'wins' up to a £100 then leaves.

So maybe he is always being let off.

But with his line of work, I don't know why he risks it?

Did the police give him back the refill key?

If they wouldn't then that suggests they know it's a crime to have one, if you don't own an arcade.

spa · Post by **spa** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:33 pm

Put a lock on your shed. Make sure a refill key opens it.

If you get caught using it then so be it. Get caught with it....... they can go check your shed.

Stevie S · Post by **Stevie S** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:10 pm

Keying a machine is perfectly legal but any pub etc also has the right to ask you to leave if they find you doing it. It is only illegal when you tamper with the electronics in such a way that it causes the machine to pay out in a way that it normally would not. There have been emptiers in the past that have involved switching the machine off and on in live play which you can most certainly get done for.

MrRed · Post by **MrRed** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:13 pm

Yes but with the extreme method, you were getting boards solely by use of the key
That is certainly something that 'could' be classed as cheating, scamming etc
I believe it is legal to own and carry one, but once you use it in the machine then it becomes illegal
I may be wrong though

thecannonball89 · Post by **thecannonball89** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:23 pm

Big bad of 5p's will do the job

betchrider · Post by **betchrider** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:28 pm

This another wind up?

porkman · Post by **porkman** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:34 pm

Keying a machine is perfectly legal but any pub etc also has the right to ask you to leave if they find you doing it. It is only illegal when you tamper with the electronics in such a way that it causes the machine to pay out in a way that it normally would not. There have been emptiers in the past that have involved switching the machine off and on in live play which you can most certainly get done for

MrRed wrote:Yes but with the extreme method, you were getting boards solely by use of the key
That is certainly something that 'could' be classed as cheating, scamming etc
I believe it is legal to own and carry one, but once you use it in the machine then it becomes illegal
I may be wrong though

Yes.

I would say it IS tampering.

And the machine does flash on and off when it's being 'keyed'

I can't see how it is NOT against the law

So yeah you can have one, but use it NOT on ur shed/own fruit machine BUT on someone elses machine than you are committing a crime. Is my guess.

TBH I thought alot of you would know/use this key, so would know about the legalities.

I surprised to read that people win on the machines WITHOUT cheating them.

Good luck to you all. Anyone that can beat the house gets my respect

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:02 am

betchrider wrote:This another wind up?

Who do we think?

Oli · Post by **Oli** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:54 pm

MrRed wrote:Yes but with the extreme method, you were getting boards solely by use of the key
That is certainly something that 'could' be classed as cheating, scamming etc
I believe it is legal to own and carry one, but once you use it in the machine then it becomes illegal
I may be wrong though

I dont know the exact quote of the law but its illegal to tamper with the machine in a way that alters the machines behaviour. The key does not does this, as it alters the way YOU play (although not so much these days) and not the machine. If it is ready to pay out then it will do so whether the key is used or not. Therefore, it is legal to own, carry and use a refill key.

Now, if you use it on the old extreme machines then technically that is illegal as it does alter how the machine behaves. However, as already stated by others this is diffcult to prove and no one has been done for it.

Pub staff and even CPOs and police officers are sometimes not 100% clued up on this, and therefore may be convinced it is illegal and a crime commited even when there has not been. I'm not sure if legally its enough for them to arrest you on 'suspicion of theft' but I wouldnt be surprised if they did anyway.