just that old chestnut
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Ruler of The World
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The Dark Horse
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ROTW:- Lol. Good post. Fair enough, just seemed very similar to the description David made of "being a player" before we met. Please bare this in mind though. Machines were much, much, much, easier back then. The things you described working out are all very basic things that a lot of average punters would work out in this day and age. Those were days of relative fruit machine infancy where programmers felt it was safe to make games where basic intelligence paid off because the average fruit player was still naive enough to believe hi-lo gambles were true odds.
As you say yourself this was the era of skill, or hand eye coordination. Developing HEC requires no intelligence, anyone can do it, it simply requires practice. In fact a trained ape could probably perform skills if so taught.
So I really wouldn't think you're a genius mate, or are somehow superior to any created players, it didn't take much more than basic intelligence to get where you got back then, and you need a lot more than that to work the game out these days.
By the way, David didn't know as much as you, but maybe picked up half the things you did, that was still enough for him to have made money if he had the correct mentality, but his compulsive gambler nature lead him to lose his profits in games he didn't know. My assumption that you were in the same boat wasn't exactly ludicrous considering you have a similar nature. Not trying to offend you, just explaining why I jumped to that conclusion.
As you say yourself this was the era of skill, or hand eye coordination. Developing HEC requires no intelligence, anyone can do it, it simply requires practice. In fact a trained ape could probably perform skills if so taught.
So I really wouldn't think you're a genius mate, or are somehow superior to any created players, it didn't take much more than basic intelligence to get where you got back then, and you need a lot more than that to work the game out these days.
By the way, David didn't know as much as you, but maybe picked up half the things you did, that was still enough for him to have made money if he had the correct mentality, but his compulsive gambler nature lead him to lose his profits in games he didn't know. My assumption that you were in the same boat wasn't exactly ludicrous considering you have a similar nature. Not trying to offend you, just explaining why I jumped to that conclusion.
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Ruler of The World
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Yes obviously games were easier back then but you still had to have the intelligence to try out each feature, realise unlike most people that the skills were actually genuine and not fixed and then see that it is in fact a very good idea to go around finding what you've found to be a provider of income due to what you have learned. I'm sure I have posted this before but 1 guy told me hitting the Wild Thing on Red Arrow was actually impossible because the human eye cannot register movement of the reels at the higher speeds and I must therefore be cheating, somehow. So many people dismiss fruit machines and the potential to make money from them - even a certain sceptic on here refused to believe hitting the win stopper feature on p1 What's In Your Box was possible to hit consistent high amounts on and claimed the percentage and programming would claw back what you hit on it even if you could. It was and still is all about belief - some people just won't have it, they refuse to believe a living can be made from these machines!
So no, I wasn't a genius to have worked out what I did, but you seem to think that today's fruits require a masters degree in quantum physics and an IQ of 180+ to be able to make a living from! Maybe I'm missing something? Please explain a highly complex method on a fruit machine we have out there now which really taxes our brains!
You cannot compare someone who went around only doing what he knew he would win on to someone who was just as good or maybe a bit worse on some games who just kept playing everything! That's like saying a kid who only played football in his back garden was as good as a professional footballer who had the same skills but was out playing professionally! If you're not out there making the money and doing the work, you're no good, your talent is wasted so it may as well not exist. You apparently made David do what he did, no one did this for me because I realised it myself so how can you say what you're saying?
Yes so let's go through the ultra difficult stuff you worked out anyway... that lots of red features when you start a board on a Red Gaming meant they are ready? That if a Cluedo was gambling above a certain feature it was ready? The highly complicated Can You Dig It/ESB rips? Don't try to make out things are so hard now or were when you entered the game when you know damned well that methods come from all over the place, people figure out little bits, other bits are revealed, etc. A good example is the Fireball/Dosh N Pecks method... I guess you just think some genius worked out that nudging in wins of £5 and above to the nearest win positions would make the machine start gambling on the features side, just out of being a fruit machine genius/God.
Instead of trying to discredit the people who did what I did (there were many before me) by trying to say things were much easier, why not recognise that effectively today's games are even less reliant on skill and thought and more about watching a deal or no deal box reel spin around, using a flash light to see what's in the box and knowing what you want to be taking - WOW, so complex! Games are still primitive, players are never geniuses, otherwise, they wouldn't be doing what they are/were in the first place. Where have all the skill features gone?
Just to reiterate, I AM NOT CLAIMING TO BE A GENIUS!
So no, I wasn't a genius to have worked out what I did, but you seem to think that today's fruits require a masters degree in quantum physics and an IQ of 180+ to be able to make a living from! Maybe I'm missing something? Please explain a highly complex method on a fruit machine we have out there now which really taxes our brains!
You cannot compare someone who went around only doing what he knew he would win on to someone who was just as good or maybe a bit worse on some games who just kept playing everything! That's like saying a kid who only played football in his back garden was as good as a professional footballer who had the same skills but was out playing professionally! If you're not out there making the money and doing the work, you're no good, your talent is wasted so it may as well not exist. You apparently made David do what he did, no one did this for me because I realised it myself so how can you say what you're saying?
Yes so let's go through the ultra difficult stuff you worked out anyway... that lots of red features when you start a board on a Red Gaming meant they are ready? That if a Cluedo was gambling above a certain feature it was ready? The highly complicated Can You Dig It/ESB rips? Don't try to make out things are so hard now or were when you entered the game when you know damned well that methods come from all over the place, people figure out little bits, other bits are revealed, etc. A good example is the Fireball/Dosh N Pecks method... I guess you just think some genius worked out that nudging in wins of £5 and above to the nearest win positions would make the machine start gambling on the features side, just out of being a fruit machine genius/God.
Instead of trying to discredit the people who did what I did (there were many before me) by trying to say things were much easier, why not recognise that effectively today's games are even less reliant on skill and thought and more about watching a deal or no deal box reel spin around, using a flash light to see what's in the box and knowing what you want to be taking - WOW, so complex! Games are still primitive, players are never geniuses, otherwise, they wouldn't be doing what they are/were in the first place. Where have all the skill features gone?
Just to reiterate, I AM NOT CLAIMING TO BE A GENIUS!
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The Dark Horse
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ROTW:- I'm not trying to discredit your achievements at all. I've always said the best players are ones who use their own initiative. You need to learn to distinguish between intelligence and extroverted intuition. People either use introverted or extroverted intuition to varying degrees in their life. Someone who uses introverted intuition is very set in their opinions and closed to new experiences and the opposite can be said for extroverted intuition, people are very open minded to opinions and new experiences. It really has nothing to do with intelligence in the way you assume and is actually totally based on your system of belief as you mentioned. Whilst your strong extroverted intuition gives you a major advantage over average players in terms of experimentation this is also the factor which makes people undisciplined. The fact you were able to use such discipline (something qhich goes against your nature) in being selective about your machine choices is perhaps where your greatest achievement lies.
I'm not sure about your analogy but I compared you with David because your personalities are similar in that way and your recount of your early days reminded me of his. Nothing to be offended about, he is one of your friends after all.
I'm saying that clues have become progressively harder over the years. Yes there were some difficult clues a while back and yes there are some easy ones now but overall they have been constantly increasing in difficulty over the years. Are you really disputing that?
The era you mentioned was full of taking the correct feature and using hand eye coordination to do it. Can you not see how primitive that is compared to even a Red Mist? Shows are more discreet and most playing methods require attention to detail and understanding to play properly. Games have multiple methods often nowadays and a lot of stuff requires individual decision making, something which was almost non existent in earlier games which were far more black and white. Gone are the days when someone who doesn't understand a method will be doing it as effectively as someone who does, individual decision making, complexity and suttle programming means many people are playing the same games to varying degrees very often nowadays.
I'm not trying to say it was hard when I got in the game. Things were much simpler then. I am saying its harder now.
I'm not sure about your analogy but I compared you with David because your personalities are similar in that way and your recount of your early days reminded me of his. Nothing to be offended about, he is one of your friends after all.
I'm saying that clues have become progressively harder over the years. Yes there were some difficult clues a while back and yes there are some easy ones now but overall they have been constantly increasing in difficulty over the years. Are you really disputing that?
The era you mentioned was full of taking the correct feature and using hand eye coordination to do it. Can you not see how primitive that is compared to even a Red Mist? Shows are more discreet and most playing methods require attention to detail and understanding to play properly. Games have multiple methods often nowadays and a lot of stuff requires individual decision making, something which was almost non existent in earlier games which were far more black and white. Gone are the days when someone who doesn't understand a method will be doing it as effectively as someone who does, individual decision making, complexity and suttle programming means many people are playing the same games to varying degrees very often nowadays.
I'm not trying to say it was hard when I got in the game. Things were much simpler then. I am saying its harder now.
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The Dark Horse
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How's about this? You drop the Glendale/Titchno vendetta and let it go (or at least pretend to and shut up about it) and I'll help you construct the valid arguments you put across. Not that anyone in here will listen anyway.Noels Beard wrote:The Glendale and titchno1 bashing was caused by my fury with individuals to grasp what you describe as the central a simple point of this thread. If you feel you can truncate a thread and get to grist of a topic, please do not be afraid to step in earlier. As it is I feel I have had to spend most of this thread defending my position, one which to me at least seems most salient and inoffensive.
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The Dark Horse
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Ruler of The World
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The funny thing about you is, you only ever talk to me on this forum. This makes me laugh, you have the option to talk to me any time yet you choose to use this forum as if you're afraid to pick up the phone or meet in person. You call David MY friend, as much as I like the guy, he isn't a friend...and he is far more YOUR friend than mine! Are you now trying to deny he is your friend? I don't really regard people I have only ever gambled with as friends. Having a meal while you're on a gambling run hardly constitutes 'going out for a meal' so knowing that I have done nothing but gamble and eat with David on our runs (which are now few and far between) doesn't represent a friendship to me. A friend is someone you go out with, go to movies with, have days where you only do non-work related things. Perhaps my idea of friendship is different to yours. The same goes for the woman sharing puppy dog, he is not a friend to me, he never has been. He is a sad individual who thrives on turning people against each other, he always has something bad to say behind everyone's back, he loves to shit stir and thinks he can control far more than he realistically can.
Is it not just the simplest of facts that we just know how to play machines better than your average punter? How many times have you seen someone on a 2 on £10 on a Red who collects it saying "I know its a 1 next!" because a couple of times it has been. Do you not see how cleverly programmed these machines were? Play a Red from dead and make it show £10 or on later programs and higher prizes, £15 - it would pretty much ALWAYS die the 1st couple of times on the gamble to the next level...it was as if the programmers were saying only the bravest and determined will get the top feature... I used to refer to this as breaking through the barriers, we both know what the barriers were. We know to push it, we know if we lose that £10/15, its gonna come straight back and we'll keep gambling until we 'force it'. That's our edge! We know when a deal is dealing its gonna keep dealing unless we take a big win - they don't!
A lot of today's games are cloned, tried and tested and safe because they've been rehashed so many times. We've still essentially got clones of Deal Or No Deal Beat The Banker for God's sake! That was the 2nd Deal Or No Deal! What are we on now? The 60th, probably more.
I'll tell you why I don't work things out these days, I just don't enjoy playing machines, I don't have any urge to play 1 unless its 1 I know I am safe to make money on. When I see disgusting games like Ducks of Hazard holding trail for £50 for the super board, all I see is bad programming. The jackpots rising is not a help at all, I firmly believe you'd get far less hassles and far more done if jackpots were £20-25. They could streak, they could pay big money, but they wouldn't go £150 behind being alive (unless there was a trick like on Arcadia on them). Wow these days you can get £210 from some machines, but you can be 400+ down in them before that happens. I don't know why the government is allowing people to gamble to such high jackpots in public places now, its really not a good thing.
Overall, I would still say it is possible for someone to do what I did on today's machines, but they would have to be really into them and they would need to spend a hell of a lot more money to get to know them inside out...the only thing I think stops this happening is the jackpots are now so high and costly to get that people just don't have the money to experiment like I could back in the day. I started at £10 jackpots, there were still some £8 jackpots around that would pay out tokens beyond £4. People like eurovision go back far further than me, does that make him even less intelligent than I was? I have to disagree with you and say that not much has changed in game programming. If you find playing a Red Mist shows you are intelligent then I can only laugh. Reversing numbers is hardly rocket science! Yes it is a clever method used but not really about intelligence, more about bravery. A proper player who wants to work things out will always do the odd crazy thing just to see what happens, because they can afford to. Who's more likely to buy their own fruit, a professional player or an addict? Think about it man! Think about what you're saying! You're obviously an intelligent guy but you really have no idea here.
Again, I must add, you DO NOT know me! I'm not claiming I know you, but you ARE because you are comparing me with someone you know and you're basing your judgements on what you have heard about me from them, not from your own experience!
Is it not just the simplest of facts that we just know how to play machines better than your average punter? How many times have you seen someone on a 2 on £10 on a Red who collects it saying "I know its a 1 next!" because a couple of times it has been. Do you not see how cleverly programmed these machines were? Play a Red from dead and make it show £10 or on later programs and higher prizes, £15 - it would pretty much ALWAYS die the 1st couple of times on the gamble to the next level...it was as if the programmers were saying only the bravest and determined will get the top feature... I used to refer to this as breaking through the barriers, we both know what the barriers were. We know to push it, we know if we lose that £10/15, its gonna come straight back and we'll keep gambling until we 'force it'. That's our edge! We know when a deal is dealing its gonna keep dealing unless we take a big win - they don't!
A lot of today's games are cloned, tried and tested and safe because they've been rehashed so many times. We've still essentially got clones of Deal Or No Deal Beat The Banker for God's sake! That was the 2nd Deal Or No Deal! What are we on now? The 60th, probably more.
I'll tell you why I don't work things out these days, I just don't enjoy playing machines, I don't have any urge to play 1 unless its 1 I know I am safe to make money on. When I see disgusting games like Ducks of Hazard holding trail for £50 for the super board, all I see is bad programming. The jackpots rising is not a help at all, I firmly believe you'd get far less hassles and far more done if jackpots were £20-25. They could streak, they could pay big money, but they wouldn't go £150 behind being alive (unless there was a trick like on Arcadia on them). Wow these days you can get £210 from some machines, but you can be 400+ down in them before that happens. I don't know why the government is allowing people to gamble to such high jackpots in public places now, its really not a good thing.
Overall, I would still say it is possible for someone to do what I did on today's machines, but they would have to be really into them and they would need to spend a hell of a lot more money to get to know them inside out...the only thing I think stops this happening is the jackpots are now so high and costly to get that people just don't have the money to experiment like I could back in the day. I started at £10 jackpots, there were still some £8 jackpots around that would pay out tokens beyond £4. People like eurovision go back far further than me, does that make him even less intelligent than I was? I have to disagree with you and say that not much has changed in game programming. If you find playing a Red Mist shows you are intelligent then I can only laugh. Reversing numbers is hardly rocket science! Yes it is a clever method used but not really about intelligence, more about bravery. A proper player who wants to work things out will always do the odd crazy thing just to see what happens, because they can afford to. Who's more likely to buy their own fruit, a professional player or an addict? Think about it man! Think about what you're saying! You're obviously an intelligent guy but you really have no idea here.
Again, I must add, you DO NOT know me! I'm not claiming I know you, but you ARE because you are comparing me with someone you know and you're basing your judgements on what you have heard about me from them, not from your own experience!
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Ruler of The World
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Can't wait for his guaranteed conceited comeback on this remark...The Dark Horse wrote:How's about this? You drop the Glendale/Titchno vendetta and let it go (or at least pretend to and shut up about it) and I'll help you construct the valid arguments you put across. Not that anyone in here will listen anyway.
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The Dark Horse
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Sigh. I did actually try to call you the other day when you were supposedly suicidal. Your phone was off so I rang David because I was concerned about you. He told me not to worry and it was just one of your typical melodramatic moments. Obviously you're correct and I don't know you at all but it appears David does.
David is my friend. I never said he wasn't. He's not always a good one but then that's the nature of friends. I say he's your friend because he classes you as a friend so I assumed you felt the same.
Reasons why I don't speak to you on the phone:-
I don't like to play games with other players in the way David does with you. If I speak to another player as a contact I have to be able to be open with them. I rather not speak to you if I'm not going to be straight about machines because I'm a direct person like yourself, I'm sure you can understand that. Why can't I just be straight with you and work together with you? When we used to talk about machines a few years back I found you were honest and direct like myself which I respected you for. But I did find you used to call me all the time telling detailed run throughs of your daily machine activity, whilst I appreciated you sharing your experiences it did get a bit much at times. David said he had the same problem. Also when we used to talk we were on an even keel with machines which doesn't seem to be the case anymore. I seem to be ahead of you on most things these days. From your own admission you're on you're arse at the moment and find it difficult to make money. It's not that I wouldn't like to help you out but we only live 7 miles from each other and I'd really just be shooting myself in the foot with a silly Trayhop style move. I'm sure you don't want charity from me and agree that all we owe each other is mutual respect.
You might say I'm being an arsehole mate but I'm just trying to be straight with you.
David is my friend. I never said he wasn't. He's not always a good one but then that's the nature of friends. I say he's your friend because he classes you as a friend so I assumed you felt the same.
Reasons why I don't speak to you on the phone:-
I don't like to play games with other players in the way David does with you. If I speak to another player as a contact I have to be able to be open with them. I rather not speak to you if I'm not going to be straight about machines because I'm a direct person like yourself, I'm sure you can understand that. Why can't I just be straight with you and work together with you? When we used to talk about machines a few years back I found you were honest and direct like myself which I respected you for. But I did find you used to call me all the time telling detailed run throughs of your daily machine activity, whilst I appreciated you sharing your experiences it did get a bit much at times. David said he had the same problem. Also when we used to talk we were on an even keel with machines which doesn't seem to be the case anymore. I seem to be ahead of you on most things these days. From your own admission you're on you're arse at the moment and find it difficult to make money. It's not that I wouldn't like to help you out but we only live 7 miles from each other and I'd really just be shooting myself in the foot with a silly Trayhop style move. I'm sure you don't want charity from me and agree that all we owe each other is mutual respect.
You might say I'm being an arsehole mate but I'm just trying to be straight with you.
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Ruler of The World
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Horse you have no idea what you are on about yet again. In a matter of days I will have my area under my old iron fist control and if you're really out there you'll soon be bumping into me a lot. It was David who'd give the constant reports of what happened to him on each machine, I don't actually remember calling you much at all, I do remember you hardly ever answering though. I don't remember asking you for anything ever either directly or indirectly or even dropping hints. Fact is, I don't need you and I don't need David nor do I need the pony or any of those top boys. I started myself, I survived by myself. I will continue to survive and I will wipe the floor with ANYONE who is currently on the patch I've spent months now listing everything on whilst I plan my new routes. That includes you and whatever little gang you are part of these days.
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Ruler of The World
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I have an aim Rich, don't worry. I've always done well when I have a long term goal. I have done most of the groundwork and you know the parasites and vultures I have dealt with in the past - they are now surplus to requirements and and go fuck themselves.Oscar wrote:And that is why you should move on mate. Focus on doing something with your life that you enjoy.
That's fighting talk! Go get 'em champ.
BIG FONT ACTIVE: BIFF! BAFF! BOFF! Knock 'em out.
Ignore that doom monster, no auto correct, monster, no.....inception............no.........iiiiinceeeption.........no.....monger.
You can do it old boy. I know exactly what all the top boy methods are and I know a bit more besides.
BIG FONT ACTIVE: BIFF! BAFF! BOFF! Knock 'em out.
Ignore that doom monster, no auto correct, monster, no.....inception............no.........iiiiinceeeption.........no.....monger.
You can do it old boy. I know exactly what all the top boy methods are and I know a bit more besides.
JG